Joe Goethals / Louis Goodman – Transcript

Louis Goodman / Joe Goethals – Transcript

Link to the episode:
https://www.lovethylawyer.com/joe-goethals-ddamayorattorney-university-of-santa-clara/

[00:00:00] Louis Goodman: Welcome to the Love Thy Lawyer podcast, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. I’m your host, Louis Goodman. Today we welcome Joe Goethals to the podcast. He is currently one of the founding partners of Goethals and Stone, focusing on major civil litigation, catastrophic injury, and victims of crime.

Before entering private practice, Mr. Goethals served as a Deputy District Attorney in both San Mateo and Alameda counties. In addition to a JD, he holds a master’s in public health and served on the board of the Peninsula Health Care District. And perhaps most impressively, he has twice served as mayor of San Mateo.

Joe Goethals, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer.

[00:00:51] Joe Goethals: Thank you so much, Louis. It’s great to be with you.

[00:00:53] Louis Goodman: Well, it’s great to see you, you know, we know each other from the Alameda County District Attorney’s Office, and I have a special place in my heart for everyone who served there. Where are you speaking to us from right now?

[00:01:08] Joe Goethals: I am at my office in downtown Burlingame.

[00:01:11] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us what kind of a practice you have right now?

[00:01:17] Joe Goethals: So first let me say, Louis, I’m a trial lawyer. And we practice personal injury, civil rights, general litigation, and then we do some consulting on development projects and government solutions.

[00:01:31] Louis Goodman: Are you trying cases as a civil attorney?

[00:01:35] Joe Goethals: I have. I’ve had my first few civil trials, and I’ve got two trials set for later this year.

[00:01:42] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally?

[00:01:44] Joe Goethals: Born and raised in San Mateo. I am a local. I am a local local. I am a townie, some people call me. Through being a little league coach and going to local schools and being the oldest of five siblings and having three daughters, I feel like I know just about everybody on the peninsula, either from being a soccer coach or softball coach or Mayor of San Mateo.

[00:02:05] Louis Goodman: Did you go to high school in San Mateo?

[00:02:07] Joe Goethals: I went to St. Ignatius in San Francisco, part of the wonderful Jesuit education that we have in the Bay Area and all over. And I enjoyed it very much. My uncle is a Jesuit priest, and he was actually teaching at the school back then. And my dad also had a lot of Jesuit education. So I enjoyed SI very much. It’s a tremendous family and I still have my best friends from St. Ignatius, and I see them all the time.

[00:02:36] Louis Goodman: You were involved with sports there, weren’t you?

[00:02:38] Joe Goethals: I played football, soccer, and baseball, and I had a great time.

[00:02:42] Louis Goodman: Now, after you graduated from St. Ignatius, where’d you go to college?

[00:02:46] Joe Goethals: I went down to Santa Clara University. Santa Clara is where my parents met. They both graduated from there. My parents have three degrees from Santa Clara. My wife and I have four degrees from Santa Clara.

[00:02:58] Louis Goodman: So, just edging them out by a little bit.

[00:03:02] Joe Goethals: I had an absolutely fabulous time in Santa Clara. So many friends. But while I was there, I played baseball for a little while. I was one of the founding members of the EMT program. Lots of us who are EMTs served the campus as EMTs. And I also was part of the on-campus housing, so I had an absolutely wonderful time in addition to meeting my wife there.

[00:03:26] Louis Goodman: And when you graduated from Santa Clara, you ultimately went to law school. Where did you go to law school?

[00:03:32] Joe Goethals: Santa Clara. Santa Clara. Ten great years. I highly recommend going to Santa Clara for at least ten years.

[00:03:40] Louis Goodman: Did you take any time off between the time you did undergraduate and the time you went to law school, or did you just go straight through?

[00:03:48] Joe Goethals: I did. As you mentioned, I got a master’s degree in public health.

My undergraduate degree is in microbiology. And I had done research with Genentech, and I had done research on campus at Santa Clara. The logical step was a master’s degree in public health, and I really loved public health. I worked in public health for several years, doing work with the Children’s Health Initiative Program.

And health education, it was something that I enjoyed very much, and it actually inspired me to go to law school. I didn’t realize that I wanted to go to law school until I was dealing with issues of public health and policy.

[00:04:30] Louis Goodman: Can you kind of fill that in a little bit?

[00:04:32] Sure. When I was getting my master’s degree, we talked about how not having health insurance is a major struggle for so many people.

Okay. And that’s a choice that we make as a society. And if we were able to cover more people with health insurance in lots of different ways, we would incredibly improve the outcomes, the health outcomes for underserved communities and eliminate the disparities. And the goal is to cover everyone a hundred percent. And eliminate the disparities between people who have insurance and people who don’t.

[00:05:09] Louis Goodman: Was there ever some time when you were thinking, well, maybe I’d go to medical school or maybe I’d go to law school and you kind of made a decision about that? Or were you pretty clear you wanted to go to law school?

[00:05:19] Joe Goethals: I was not clear that I wanted to go to law school. I was looking to stay in whatever school I could for as long as possible and, and not get a real job. I loved being on campus, I loved school, I loved my education, and it was the master’s degree in public health that really pushed me in the direction of policy, and I only applied to one college, Louis, and I only applied to one law school.

[00:05:49] Louis Goodman: So, you knew where you wanted to go.

[00:05:51] Joe Goethals: Where else? Where else?

[00:05:54] Louis Goodman: Now, when you got out of law school, what job did you get? Did you go right to the Alameda County DA’s office, or was there something in between?

[00:06:01] Joe Goethals: Did. I was lucky. I was lucky that the Alameda County DA’s office was hiring when I graduated.

[00:06:08] Louis Goodman: You and me both.

[00:06:10] Joe Goethals: I was very lucky. It was a fabulous place to start my career.

[00:06:16] Louis Goodman: I agree. I have. I have nothing but positive things to say about my experiences in Alameda County Deputy District Attorney. It was a wonderful place to work. The county was a great employer. You know, well, I mean, you know, you know all the same people that I do. And it was just a, just a great place, a collegial place to work.

[00:06:34] Joe Goethals: From day one, I remember the very first day in the office, Tom Orloff called me into his office, sat me down, said, We’re here to do the right thing. You’re never going to be asked to do something that you don’t believe in. And one thing that I want you to remember is your reputation.

You only have one reputation and if you ever do something to ruin it. That’s going to follow you the rest of your career. It takes a lifetime to build a great reputation and it takes very little time to spoil it. So, with that pep talk, I started and the Alameda County DA’s Office ended up being a fantastic place where I learned how to be a member of a team.

I learned how to work hard. I learned that we’re here to do the right thing for the right reasons. It was an absolutely perfect place to start my career.

[00:07:29] Louis Goodman: Now, I know that you were there for nearly 10 years and you tried over 25 jury cases, serious cases to, to verdict, including homicides. And then you went over to the San Mateo District Attorney’s Office.

I’m wondering what prompted that move.

[00:07:45] Joe Goethals: So by that time I was serving on the San Mateo city council and I had had my first two daughters. I have three daughters. It was really getting hard with that commute that the economy was booming. There were people on the roads all over the place and it felt like the freeways were just a standstill and as much as I love the office, I couldn’t do the commute anymore.

So, San Mateo was a perfect marriage of the career that I love and the county that I’ve always been a member of.

[00:08:20] Louis Goodman: After you left the San Mateo County District Attorney’s Office, can you give a brief history of your career and how you ended up where you are now in this position? I guess it’s a fairly new partnership with Mr. Stone.

[00:08:36] Joe Goethals: It’s a fairly new partnership, but it’s not a new friendship. Charles and I have known each other for over 10 years and become best friends. He was on the city council of Belmont when I was on the city council in San Mateo. He was the mayor of Belmont. I was the mayor of San Mateo. And he and I have formed this partnership out of our friendship.

He raised his daughters and they’re in college now and supported their sports teams. I have three daughters and I’ve been coaching them in soccer and softball and I’m enjoying two of them who are in high school now. When I left the DA’s Office, I started a general litigation practice and I was taking just about everything that walked through the door.

I handled many, many criminal defense cases with great outcomes. I had a huge volume of criminal defense cases. I realized that that kind of volume was not sustainable and not really the direction I wanted my career to go in. And I started taking more civil cases. I got out to a couple of civil trials.

I started to narrow down my practice and it has landed right here where I’m working with many victims of crime, people who have serious injuries, and it feels a lot like being a DA. These are oftentimes victims, victims of serious injuries, victims of crimes. And I’m advocating for them and on their behalf, with the main difference being, I had a lot more cases in the DA’s office, and now I get to spend more time dedicated to my clients.

[00:10:15] Louis Goodman: What did you think of doing criminal defense, having come out of the District Attorney’s Office and being a criminal prosecutor for so long?

[00:10:22] Joe Goethals: It was a very easy transition for me, Louis. I took it on and formed a relationship with my clients the same way I would with witnesses or victims. I loved representing my clients and getting the best possible outcome for them, humanizing them and giving them the right expectations.

I think one of the great things that we have when we have a lot of experience in the criminal justice system is that we know what the likely outcome is going to be. And so we can, we can let our clients know, this is what a good outcome would be, and this is what a great outcome would, would be.

And with the right expectations and the right strategy, that’s a recipe for success and for a happy client. I think all of us as attorneys know that clients with the wrong expectations makes for very unhappy clients.

[00:11:18] Louis Goodman: Yeah, that’s a very interesting answer that you gave, and I think it’s very true, you know, I mean, I have people ask me all the time, you know, what was it like, you know, leaving the DA’s Office, and how could you then do criminal defense, and when I tell them that it’s kind of really just two sides of the same coin, I think some people don’t really understand that, but yeah, it is a matter of dealing with people, setting expectations, communicating, explaining what is potentially a complicated system that doesn’t necessarily make sense to a lot of people. And whether that person is a victim or a witness or a defendant, you know, they all need to have the legal system explained to them in some way.

[00:12:04] Joe Goethals: And you’re right. Effective communication is the key. Whether it’s communication with your client or communication with a witness, communication with the judge, communication with the jury. If you’re effectively communicating, then you are advocating and you’re persuading and you’re humanizing your client.

So that’s the key to everything.

[00:12:26] Louis Goodman: Well, you have been practicing law on a number of different levels in a number of different ways. What is it that you really like about practicing law that keeps you as an attorney?

[00:12:37] Joe Goethals: One of the things I love about being an attorney is that people will call me and they will ask for help.

And I know from experience that I can help them. I’ve seen what happens inside of a courtroom and outside of a courtroom. And I can speak with authority on what I think is going to happen. I can communicate to my client that this is what we need to do in order to have a successful outcome in that case.

I can counsel them on sometimes in a very difficult situation, I’m counseling them on something that is not possible. And helping them to have the right expectations about what we can do. Sometimes it’s getting creative and finding a window when the door is closed. Receiving that call where someone is in desperate need and they’re asking you for help and having the skills and the opportunity to help them.

That is what I love. And whether it’s as an attorney or anything else in the world. I think that many of us enjoy having that opportunity to help other people.

[00:13:48] Louis Goodman: If someone was coming out of college and thinking about a career in law, would you recommend that they go ahead and do that?

[00:13:54] Joe Goethals: So I love it. I love being an attorney, but I think that I would certainly caution anyone who is thinking about law school.

I think that anybody considering law school has to know that there are easier ways to make money. I think anyone considering law school needs to know that you don’t have to go to all this extra schooling in order to, to make a decent living. You certainly don’t need to take the bar exam to make a decent wage.

You need to look at what attorneys deal with day in and day out. It’s a tremendous amount of stress and conflict. Not all attorneys are litigators. Not all attorneys are fighting in court. But we’re dealing with heavy situations in life. I think all of us have seen someone who struggles with stress and anxiety.

And I certainly pay attention to my colleagues for signs of burnout. And I have seen it in myself. You know, we deal with really heavy issues, and we see a lot of terrible situations and it weighs on us. And many people cope with that in ways that are very destructive. And so, I’m always looking out for my colleagues to make sure that they have the support that they need. And I’ve done a better job recently of paying attention to myself and knowing when I need a vacation, knowing when I need a break, knowing when I need to go home early from the office and trying very hard not to take it home to my family. That is part of what I tell people when they tell me they’re considering law school is just to make sure this is the right choice for you. And know everything that’s involved in.

[00:15:46] Louis Goodman: Can you talk a little bit about the political work that you’ve done? You know, you served in political office. You were the mayor of San Mateo. What interested you about that and talk about how that’s fit into your life and your practice.

[00:16:04] Joe Goethals: So I have never had an ivory tower life or an ivory tower career.

I love being a blue-collar attorney and walking down the street and knowing all my cops, knowing all the firefighters, knowing the mailman who delivers the mail and the folks who work for our local waste management company. That’s just something that I love. And when you look at what cities do for the community, cities are about police and fire, cities are about having clean streets and clean parks and a great wastewater treatment plant.

That’s what I did. So I was really focused on infrastructure and safety. We invested a billion dollars in our wastewater treatment plant. We improved the quality of our streets from a pavement condition index score of 60. And we increased it to where it’s now in the nineties. That’s filling a lot of potholes.

And along the way, I got to be the complaints department for just about every resident of San Mateo at one time or another. Sometimes I was successful at addressing someone’s complaints and sometimes not, but I tried hard, and it was extremely rewarding and it was a great way to expose my kids to what I think it means to be an engaged citizen and someone who participates in their democracy.

[00:17:30] Louis Goodman: What about the business of practicing law? You know, you and I both started out as government attorneys, picking up a paycheck from the county. Now, we are businesspeople in addition to being lawyers. How is the business aspect of practicing law gone for you and what’s your comment about it?

[00:17:49] Joe Goethals: So it’s very challenging.

I think anybody starting out trying to hang and shingle and start a practice is going to face many challenges. For me personally, as you said, I started out with the government, so I wasn’t really keeping track of hours. I had to learn that skill later in life as an attorney. That was one of the real luxuries of working for the DA’s offices.

It didn’t matter if I spent eight hours on one case or a hundred hours on a case. I didn’t have to keep track of the hours and send somebody a bill. And now I do. So it’s, it’s not fun keeping track of minutes. It’s not fun sending bills and making phone calls to collect on invoices. It is easier to cases on contingency, cases that you really believe in and, and that you don’t have to send out invoices for, but those are far and few between you really have to find the right ones and make sure, make sure you’re not investing a whole bunch of time to a case that’s, that’s going to come back empty. So those are some of the challenges.

One of the big things I know a lot of people face is growing a, a base of clients. And one of the things that I have found easiest. Is that my phone rings, my phone rings every day. And because of my network and because of the network of my law partner, we know everybody.

And so when they’re trying to solve their problem, they call us. And if we can’t solve it, we know who to refer them to. And so having that reputation in the community is, is quite a luxury.

[00:19:25] Louis Goodman: Is there anything that you know now that you really wish you knew before you started practicing law?

[00:19:30] Joe Goethals: You know, I probably would have focused a lot more on my typing skills in high school.

Hey, it would be great to be a better typer. That would serve me very well.

[00:19:40] Louis Goodman: What do you think is the best advice that you’ve ever received? And what advice would you give to a young attorney just starting out?

[00:19:51] Joe Goethals: So it’s the same answer I have been given this advice several times, and it’s one of my pieces of advice that I love to give to younger attorneys and that is to, to try things before you think you’re ready for them.

You know, if you wait until you’re ready to take on some big challenge, you’re never going to get there. You’re never going to think that you’re ready to take it on. And so you have to believe in yourself. You have to know that aspiring to do something means that you are ready to do it and do it before you think you’re ready.

Otherwise, you’ll end up waiting too long and you might miss your window. So it’s a great piece of advice. I love to give to people and it chills them usually with some confidence that. You know what? I can take that on. I don’t know why I’m waiting until next year to do this or that. I am ready to try felonies.

I am ready to hang my own shingle and go out on my own. I think encouraging people to do that sooner than later always serves them well. Taking risk is often rewarded.

[00:21:03] Louis Goodman: Do you think the legal system’s fair?

[00:21:06] Joe Goethals: No. No. I think in general, the legal system is the worst possible thing that we could do, except for all the others.

[00:21:17] Louis Goodman: I want to shift gears here a little bit, Joe. What’s your family life been like and how has the practice of law fit into your family life and how’s the family situation fit into the practice of law?

[00:21:29] Joe Goethals: There is no such thing as work life balance. It just, that has never been something that completely made sense to me.

I think that those of us who are really dedicated and passionate about serving our clients realize that there are going to be days and weeks where things are way out of bounds. And there are also times where I make a point of going to the field trip for my daughters, I make a point of coaching their softball team, I make a point of taking them on that vacation.

At the end of the year, at the end of the decade, maybe things work out. But it’s not something that I can keep track of on a day-to-day basis. It has been a huge benefit to have my mom close by in San Mateo, and she’s helped us a tremendous amount with our kids. My wife has been incredibly supportive of all my endeavors, both serving the city and my career, and my wife is incredibly successful in her own right in her career. And I’ve done everything I can to be supportive of her. So we’ve, we faced all the same challenges that young families have in the Bay Area trying to make ends meet. I don’t have, I don’t have any regrets, Louis. I just, I just think, I wish there were more hours in the day.

[00:22:55] Louis Goodman: What sort of things do you enjoy doing recreationally to kind of get your mind off of the practice of law once in a while?

[00:23:01] Joe Goethals: I love sports. I love coaching my daughter’s teams. I love working out. My wife and I have run several marathons together. My wife has gotten really into cycling, and she’ll let me tag along sometimes.

I love sports, whether it’s taking my kids to a Giants game or a women’s professional soccer game, or coaching one of my kids’ teams, that’s what I love doing in my free time.

[00:23:31] Louis Goodman: Let’s say you came into some real money, you know, three or four billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life?

[00:23:42] Joe Goethals: So the first thing I would do different, is I would spend more time with my kids. I have realized recently I’ve got two in high school and one in fourth grade. The years that I have left with them are dwindling and I want to spend every weekend and every minute with them. I can see those years just flying by.

So I would definitely spend more time with them. I would continue to do work that I find very valuable and meaningful to me. I take that all of us, whether we have a million dollars or a billion dollars, you need to fill your time here on this planet with something meaningful and I’m lucky enough to have that to have a job that fits with my mission and it is meaningful to me and the impact that it has on the individuals who I work with.

So it would be something similar, maybe on a grander scale, but I would be spending every minute I can with my kids until they go off to college.

[00:24:47] Louis Goodman: Let’s say you had 60 seconds on the Super Bowl, someone gave you a Super Bowl ad, and you could put out a message to this enormous audience, what would you want to say?

[00:24:58] Joe Goethals: I would want to remind everyone that the people who they deal with on a daily basis are all more than they appear on the outside, and that if we have empathy for each other, If we are willing to listen, then we’re going to realize that other people are just like us. And in many ways, other people are hurting just like us.

Other people have been through traumas that we don’t even know about, just like us. If we dealt with everybody in our lives with that kind of humanity, we would all be better off.

[00:25:37] Louis Goodman: Is there someone who you’d like to meet? Someone who’s living or someone out of the historical past? Anybody that you could think of who you would like to meet?

[00:25:47] Joe Goethals: Got two quick answers for you. The first is I think one of the most interesting dinners that I could have would be a dinner with the three Emanuel brothers, Rahm Emanuel and his two brothers, they just live fascinating lives and they are at the pinnacle of each of their industries and they have rubbed elbows with the most powerful people, the richest people in the world right now.

And I’m curious that based on that experience, what they think about where the world is headed and what we need the most right now on a personal note, I have loved Joseph Campbell and the teachings of Joseph Campbell and how he has been such a great storyteller of, of human myths through time.

And how we need our myths, how we need to be good storytellers in order to be good moral people, in order to be good ethical people, we have to have the skill of good storytelling. And Joseph Campbell was a great storyteller and a great historian. And I think that his insights would help me on a personal level.

[00:27:08] Louis Goodman: If someone wants to get in touch with you. What is the best way to do that?

[00:27:14] Joe Goethals: Anybody can go to our website. Our website is Goethalsandstonelaw.com and I’ll make it easier. It’s gostlaw.com. One more time. gostlaw.com.

[00:27:32] Louis Goodman: And I assume also that if we Google Joe or Joseph Goethals and San Mateo, We’ll, we’ll find you as well. Is that correct?

[00:27:42] Joe Goethals: That is definitely going to be me for better or worse.

[00:27:45] Louis Goodman: Joe, is there anything that we haven’t touched on anything that you want to talk about that we haven’t discussed anything that you’d like to bring up? Anything at all?

[00:27:53] Joe Goethals: Well, briefly, Louis, I just want to say how much I admire you and admire this podcast or what you’re doing, and I would love to go kitesurfing or cycling or what is it you’re doing now? You’re, you’re on the foil. Is that what you’re doing?

[00:28:09] Louis Goodman: I’m, I’m learning to foil board. Yeah. I just recently actually got up regularly on the foil and. It’s, it’s another progression from the windsurfing to the kiteboarding and now the foil boarding.

[00:28:24] Joe Goethals: That is so awesome. I aspire to be you. I admire you and, and I really appreciate what you’re doing. I think you’re doing what I was talking about. This is great storytelling and you’re humanizing this entire profession and elevating it. And I don’t think there’s anything better you could be doing. Louis, thank you so much for that.

[00:28:48] Louis Goodman: Well, I appreciate the kind words. Joe Goethals, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you.

[00:28:57] Joe Goethals: You too. Thanks, Louis.

[00:28:59] Louis Goodman: That’s it for today’s episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs, and information.

Thanks to my guests and to Joel Katz for music, Brian Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media, and Tracy Harvey. I’m Louis Goodman.

[00:29:39] Joe Goethals: That answer is not going to work. Louis, let me try that again.

[00:29:43] Louis Goodman: Okay, let’s start that one over.