Maria Bee / Louis Goodman – Transcript

Louis Goodman / Maria Bee – Transcript

Link to podcast:

https://www.lovethylawyer.com/maria-bee-acba-chief-assistant-oakland-city-attorney/

[00:00:00] Louis Goodman: Welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. I’m your host, Louis Goodman. Today, we welcome Chief Assistant City Attorney, Maria Bee, to the program. Working for the city of Oakland, she oversees affirmative action litigation that focuses on injustices that impact blacks, indigenous people, Latin and Pacific Islanders, and other marginalized communities.

Communities. Ms. Bee has also served as the Chief of Victim Services in the San Francisco District Attorney’s Office. She is a member of the Charles Houston Bar Association and serves on the board of the Alameda County Bar Association. Maria Bee, welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast.

[00:00:57] Maria Bee: Hi, thanks for having me.

[00:00:58] Louis Goodman: It’s a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. Where are you speaking to us from right now?

[00:01:04] Maria Bee: I am upstairs in my house.

[00:01:07] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us a little bit about the job that you have right now? The title of it, and what sort of practice that you have in that position.

[00:01:18] Maria Bee: Sure. So, as you said, I’m the Chief Assistant City Attorney in City Attorney’s Office in Oakland. And in that role, I oversee both our Affirmative Litigation Division. And our defensive litigation teams on the affirmative side we have three units. We have the Community Lawyering and Civil Rights Unit that focuses on bigger impact type cases that affect the people of Oakland.

We have the Neighborhood Law Corps, which is a team of five attorneys who work directly with the community and help with quality-of-life issues, including housing. And then we have the Housing Justice Initiative that focuses on the larger housing cases that involve harassment and habitability issues.

On the defense side we have a team of attorneys that defend the city whenever the city is sued, and that can come up in a variety of situations from dangerous conditions to employment cases, to challenges to our ordinances, motor vehicle accidents, civil rights, on and on.

[00:02:29] Louis Goodman: How big is the City Attorney’s Office in Oakland?

[00:02:33] Maria Bee: We have about 50 attorneys and about 35 support staff.

[00:02:37] Louis Goodman: How long have you been there?

[00:02:39] Maria Bee: Combined, I’ve been with the office about 15 years.

[00:02:43] Louis Goodman: When you say combined, were you there for a while and then you went and did something else and then came back?

[00:02:47] Maria Bee: Exactly.

[00:02:49] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally?

[00:02:51] Maria Bee: I’m from Oakland, Oakland native.

[00:02:54] Louis Goodman: Did you go to high school here in Oakland?

[00:02:56] Maria Bee: Skyline High, the Titans.

[00:02:58] Louis Goodman: When you graduated from Skyline, where did you go to college?

[00:03:02] Maria Bee: I went to Berkeley.

[00:03:04] Louis Goodman: And when you graduated from Berkeley, at some point you went to law school. Did you go directly from college to law school, or did you take some time off?

[00:03:13] Maria Bee: I took some time off in between.

[00:03:15] Louis Goodman: And where did you go to law school?

[00:03:17] Maria Bee: I went to Berkeley.

[00:03:19] Louis Goodman: So, you grew up in Oakland, you went to college in Berkeley, you went to law school in Berkeley, but you took some time off. What did you do during that period of time off and how long did you take between college and law school?

[00:03:32] Maria Bee: I took about two years. And I did not go far. I went to Walnut Creek where I worked as an insurance adjuster.

[00:03:40] Louis Goodman: Do you think that having taken some time off and worked in what I would call a legal adjacent field was helpful to you in terms of focusing on going to law school when you went, once you got to law school?

[00:03:56] Maria Bee: Absolutely. Even taking off just two years and being in the workforce, I think I had a different perspective than others who went straight through from law school, from college to law school.

[00:04:08] Louis Goodman: Well, I’ve said this before on this podcast, but I think it bears repeating that people in my law school class who were the best law students, and I went to what was then called Hastings and now has a different moniker, but were women in their mid to late twenties who had taken a couple of years off between college and law school and had worked either in law firms or legally-adjacent fields. And so, I imagine you did quite well in law school.

[00:04:42] Maria Bee: I did okay. I think the thing that the thing taking time off gives you is a perspective of not sweating the small stuff and understanding that if you put in the time, you’ll do okay. It just seemed like the students that went straight through were often tightly wound in a way that I wasn’t.

[00:05:02] Louis Goodman: Yeah, I think that that is very important, having a little bit of that real world perspective and then bringing it back into the academic world. When did you first decide that you wanted to go to law school, that you wanted to be a lawyer?

[00:05:17] Maria Bee: I think it was probably during college. And by way of background, my mother went to law school when she was in her 40s after having a career as a therapist and a counselor, and I saw what she was doing, and I thought it was interesting, and so I thought I would do it as well. I don’t think I would have considered a career in the law if she had not become a lawyer.

[00:05:43] Louis Goodman: What sort of work did she do, just out of curiosity?

[00:05:46] Maria Bee: Well, in addition to being a single mom of three daughters, when she graduated from what was then Hastings, she hung her own shingle for a time doing family law, and then she worked in the DA’s Office, and then she worked in the City Attorney’s Office.

[00:06:04] Louis Goodman: So, in some ways, you have certainly followed in her footsteps.

[00:06:08] Maria Bee: Almost completely.

[00:06:11] Louis Goodman: When you got out of law school, where did you go to work? I’m wondering if you’d kind of bring us through your career path, through the San Francisco District Attorney’s Office, the City Attorney’s Office, your time off from the City Attorney’s Office and then getting back to the City Attorney’s Office.

[00:06:28] Maria Bee: Sure. So, when I graduated, I went and worked at a large law firm. At that time, it was called McCutcheon, Doyle, Brown and Enerson. And I was there for two to three years. And then I went to the DA’s Office in San Francisco, where I prosecuted hate crimes and street crimes and things of that nature. I left there and came to the City Attorney’s Office.

By that time, it was around 2000, I think. And I was with the City Attorney’s Office doing defense side litigation. For five or six years, and then I went back to the DA’s Office in San Francisco, but in a different role where I was leading their Victim Services Division, and I was there for eight years or so, quite a while.

And then I came back to the City Attorney’s Office as a supervisor in the defense side litigation team, and then ultimately progressed to the position I’m in now.

[00:07:27] Louis Goodman: I’m wondering if you could do a little compare and contrast in terms of dealing with being a government lawyer in the criminal world and being a government lawyer in the civil world.

[00:07:39] Maria Bee: Sure. So criminal law is very different than civil law, both in terms of the pace and the stakes. So, when I was at the DA’s Office, it was very fast paced. It was an environment where people were in the hallways talking about their cases, asking questions, sharing information, that kind of thing. And like I said, the stakes were higher because you’re dealing with people’s liberty and people’s safety.

The City Attorney’s Office though, I find that the stakes are also high, especially in the affirmative cases where our teams are vindicating the rights of folks whose rights have been violated. So, if someone who has housing that is unsafe, standing up for them and making sure they get into safe housing, those stakes are very high as well.

So, I guess I would say the stakes are higher in criminal law, but both jobs are very important.

[00:08:37] Louis Goodman: Speaking of housing, I know that Oakland has a homeless issue and I’m wondering if the City Attorney’s Office gets involved with that issue.

[00:08:49] Maria Bee: We do, and it’s interesting because I see Jamila Jefferson is one of the attendees today, and she’s handled almost all of the litigation that’s been brought against the city of Oakland in terms of clearing or cleaning homeless encampments.

And so the city’s role is to basically make sure that those operations take place in accordance with due process.

[00:09:16] Louis Goodman: You’ve had a lot of experience as an attorney in a number of different roles, what is it that you really like about practicing law? Because you’ve stayed as a lawyer.

[00:09:29] Maria Bee: I think there are two components.

I love being an advocate. So, I like, for example, in criminal law, I like standing up for folks who don’t have a voice in the system. So, standing up for victims who are often ignored or neglected by the criminal justice system. And in civil law, as I mentioned before, for example, in the housing cases, it’s the advocating for the people of Oakland.

The other component is, it’s like putting together a puzzle almost. So, the strategy behind putting together a case or opposing a motion and brainstorming with my colleagues about what’s the best way to position the city so we get a good result. So, I like the strategy involved there.

[00:10:15] Louis Goodman: If a young person were just graduating from college thinking about law as a career, would you recommend that they pursue that?

[00:10:22] Maria Bee: Definitely.

[00:10:24] Louis Goodman: Why?

[00:10:24] Maria Bee: Well, there’s a lot of hard work involved, I think, as we all know. But it also can be extremely rewarding and gratifying. Sometimes even the smallest things, someone calls our office and is in a bad situation and needs our help, and whether we can help them or not, if we just listen to what they’re saying, so they know someone cares, that moves the needle, that is a contribution to our community.

So, I think in practically every law job you take, you can give back and make a difference in someone’s life.

[00:10:57] Louis Goodman: How is actually practicing law either met or differed from your expectations about it?

[00:11:02] Maria Bee: Well, when I graduated from law school, I went to a big firm and it was not a good fit for me, and I’m glad that I didn’t stop there and think that was the sum total of being a lawyer.

So I think trying different things, working in different contexts, whether it’s criminal or civil, public or private, I don’t know that I had a real expectation of what it would be like, but I think it’s actually exceeded my expectations.

[00:11:30] Louis Goodman: I’d like you to talk a little bit about your work with the Alameda County Bar Association.

You know, in addition to having a lot of responsibilities at the City Attorney’s Office, you nevertheless have found some time to devote to the Alameda County Bar Association. I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about that aspect of your career.

[00:11:53] Maria Bee: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s really important to be involved in the community that we serve.

So I wanted to be involved in the Bar Association. My first involvement was joining the Lawyers Referral Service, LRS, which is responsible for making sure that there’s a panel of lawyers available for the people of Alameda County, whether folks are of modest means or not, and I ultimately chaired that committee for a number of years.

Then I joined the board, um, and I’m still on the board now, and I am, what is it called? I’m in a liaison to the Court Appointed Advocate program, CAP, where we make sure that there are criminal lawyers available to criminal defendants and Alameda County that may not be able to use the services of the Public Defender’s Office.

So that work has been really interesting, um, and different than what I’m doing on the day to day and working on the board and influencing policy has been great. And I would encourage everyone and anyone to get involved in the bar association.

[00:12:59] Louis Goodman: What do you think is the best advice you’ve ever received? And then let me just flip that to say also, what advice would you give to a young attorney starting out in a career?

[00:13:11] Maria Bee: I think the best advice I’ve received was very specific. So, it was when I was in the DA’s Office and trying cases and a senior attorney told me, if you want the jury to think a certain way or vote a certain way, you need to tell them, you need to say it. So, for example, if you think that the defendant is lying, don’t dance around that fact.

If you want them to say the defendant is lying, you need to be direct and say that. And so, I think that had a big impact on how I tried cases, because I was much more direct with the jury. In terms of new attorneys, I would tell them to not be afraid of making mistakes, because in the law, almost anything is fixable in some manner, and basically just to work hard and learn.

I learn new things almost every day. Situations come up that I’ve never encountered before after all these years, so I would tell them not to be afraid of the unknown and making mistakes.

[00:14:18] Louis Goodman: Yeah, I think that’s such a good point because I’ve been practicing law for kind of a long time now, and I don’t think a week goes by where I don’t see something that is new.

And my, you know, someone sort of like you, I mean, my dad was a lawyer, and he practiced law for over 50 years. And he would always say the great thing about practicing law is there’s always something new. There’s always a new wrinkle. There’s always something new. And I think that is a great benefit of practicing law is that it keeps you fresh no matter whether you want to be or not.

[00:14:56] Maria Bee: Exactly.

[00:14:58] Louis Goodman: Do you think the legal system’s fair?

[00:15:00] Maria Bee: Sometimes. I think in the civil arena, it’s more fair than the criminal justice system, but I would add that I think there’s an access to representation and justice that’s also lacking in the civil arena. I know that some cities or counties have instituted, I think they call them like Gideon programs, where the county provides lawyers in civil cases to those who can afford a lawyer.

I think that should be universal. I know it’s very expensive, but I think otherwise the playing field is not fair if people don’t have equal access to representation. And then in the criminal justice system, there are just so many systemic and structural problems with that system from traffic stops, implicit bias, charging decisions by the DAs, jury decisions by people who may be biased and even sentencing.

So, I think there’s still a lot of work to be done in the criminal justice system.

[00:16:03] Louis Goodman: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit. I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your family life and how the practice of law has fit into your family life, how your family life has fit into the practice of law.

[00:16:15] Maria Bee: I think the work life balance can be very challenging when you’re a lawyer, and it can be even more challenging if you have kids or a partner. When I was a younger attorney and trying cases, I walked around with a lot of guilt that I was working on the weekend and not spending time with my children.

So, I think I think that’s difficult. It’s a lot easier now that my kids are grown, they don’t want to spend time with me, so it’s okay. But I think things have changed somewhat since I was a younger lawyer, and I think the attorneys that are coming in now are more focused, at least in the public sector, on the work life balance, and I hope that in my office, at least we have created a culture where we value people to have a life separate from the work.

[00:17:04] Louis Goodman: Any recreational pursuits that you enjoy, things to get your mind off of the practice of law when you have a chance?

[00:17:11] Maria Bee: I exercise a lot and that helps with, I think, the stress that goes along with being a lawyer and then I also like to hike with my dogs.

[00:17:20] Louis Goodman: What mistakes do you think lawyers make?

[00:17:23] Maria Bee: I think the biggest mistake is that some lawyers feel they need to be aggressive or maybe overly aggressive. And there’s a difference between aggression and assertiveness. And I think you can be an excellent lawyer as long as you’re assertive. When you become aggressive or hostile or over overly adversarial, I don’t think you’re doing your client any service. I don’t think you get a better result. And it just puts really bad vibes into the environment.

[00:17:54] Louis Goodman: Let’s say you came into some real money, three or four billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life?

[00:18:03] Maria Bee: My house was built in 1910, so I would do some serious repairs to my house. Um, and after that I would have, I would create a series of nonprofits. I’ve thought about this, even though I don’t play the lotto, I pretend like I could win the lotto. One would deal with animal wear welfare. I would have a huge, maybe a state or something where animals could roam free and have good lives.

I would also set up advocacy centers for children where it could be an alternative to foster care. These are all pipe dreams, I realize, but those are some of the things that I would do if I had billions of dollars.

[00:18:39] Louis Goodman: Yeah. Well, I think for most of us. Coming into three or four billion dollars is kind of a pipe dream.

So I encourage people to dream, you know, how about if you had a magic wand and there was one thing in the world, the legal world or otherwise that you could change, what would that be?

[00:18:55] Maria Bee: If I could change one thing, I think I would stop war. Sounds very naive, but I think if there was no war, we would have a lot less poverty.

We would have less displacement refugees. And at least that would be a start.

[00:19:12] Louis Goodman: Let’s say you had a Super Bowl ad. Someone gave you 60 seconds on the Super Bowl. Put out a big message to the entire country. What would you want to say?

[00:19:22] Maria Bee: I think I would want to tell people to be critical thinkers and not believe everything they hear; not believe everything they think. And to listen to different viewpoints.

[00:19:34] Louis Goodman: We have, Maria, a number of people on this call with us, and I would like to start bringing some of them into our conversation. I’ll have at least one further question for you at the end, but I’d like to bring some people in who are on the call, and I’m just gonna call on you.

And why don’t I start with Montana Baker.

[00:19:59] Montana Baker: Hi, Maria.

[00:20:00] Maria Bee: Hi, Montana.

[00:20:03] Montana Baker: I have a question for Maria. What’s the most rewarding part about supervising so many lawyers in our office?

[00:20:11] Maria Bee: That’s a good question. I have to say that I love both the affirmative team and the defense team. But working with the affirmative lawyers, who are generally less experienced and seeing their enthusiasm, their eagerness, their commitment, their brilliance keeps me going.

Their energy keeps me from becoming jaded or becoming burnt out.

[00:20:39] Louis Goodman: Jamila Jefferson.

[00:20:42] Jamila Jefferson: If you had to think of a case, not at the City Attorney’s Office, but from what your prior job, that sticks with you or was very meaningful to you, either positively or negatively, what case would it be, or maybe what were the facts of the case and why was it, why does it stay with you?

[00:21:06] Maria Bee: So when I was at the DA’s Office, I had a case of a young woman, she may have been a teenager who was shot in public housing and we were able to prosecute the case and, you know, it got a conviction. But the thing that stood out to me and meant a lot was we were able to relocate her somewhere else where she could be safe and where she could continue going to school and thrive. And that was something that’s very meaningful and has stuck with me over the years.

[00:21:40] Louis Goodman: Courtney O’Brien.

[00:21:42] Courtney O’Brien: Good afternoon, Maria. I’m wondering what would you characterize as the biggest way that the City Attorney’s Office has changed since the time when you started working there?

[00:21:56] Maria Bee: Oh, that’s an interesting question.

So, the office was great when I started, I enjoyed it. But I think honestly, under Barbara Parker’s leadership, she has created a culture of collegiality and respect that was not present before to that level. And I think it just makes practicing law, which can be demanding and difficult, much more humane and satisfying when you’re working in an environment where colleagues respect each other and share information and value the work that you’re doing.

So, I would, I would say that’s probably the biggest difference.

[00:22:38] Courtney O’Brien: Thank you.

[00:22:39] Louis Goodman: De Fantas.

[00:22:40] De Fantas: Thank you so much, Louis, for the opportunity and hi Maria. My question to you would be, what are the current challenges or hot topics in our local bar?

[00:22:51] Maria Bee: I think that access remains a problem, access to the civil system, access to lawyers.

I think that remains a hot topic and I think the Bar Association has done a really great job of providing workshops for people to learn how to advise, for example, in landlord tenant cases or I think there was a family law workshop as well. One of my colleagues, Celia Warren, I see is on the call.

She took advantage of that. So, I think the bar is doing great work to provide more potential representation for folks so that they do have equal access to the civil justice system.

[00:23:32] De Fantas: Thank you.

[00:23:33] Louis Goodman: Thanks. Anya Coop.

[00:23:37] Anya Coop: For me, also working in the City Attorney’s Office and being from Oakland, it was really cool to learn that you also had roots in the community.

My question for you is, was there some tie to the community that motivated you pursuing this position and how does it feel to have this type of relationship with the place you grew up in and live in now?

[00:23:57] Maria Bee: Yeah, so I wanted to work at the City Attorney’s Office for a long time before I actually got in. Back in the day, people did not leave, so it was very hard to get into the office. So, I did have a longstanding interest in working here. I think it’s an honor to be able to work for the city where you grew up and work for the community where you were raised. So, I can’t think of a better place to practice law than in Oakland.

As you know, we have a lot of our own challenges, but I just find it really rewarding to be able to do even just a little bit for the community to work in the city’s best interest.

[00:24:40] Louis Goodman: Celia Warren.

[00:24:42] Celia Warren: Greetings. Maria, um, my question for you, and this is fantastic. I’m so glad I joined. My question for you is what do you want your legacy to be within our office? How do you wish to be remembered? Not that I want you to leave anytime soon.

[00:25:01] Maria Bee: I would like to be remembered as the type of manager who supported her teams, who listened to their feedback and took action on it and continued this culture that I think Barbara Parker has created of respect and really valuing each member of the team and making sure they know that they are valued.

[00:25:27] Louis Goodman: Hima Raviprakash.

[00:25:31] Hima Raviprakash: Hi, Maria. My name is Hima, and I am a DAG with the California Attorney General’s Office. And I am one of the people that coordinates the internship program every summer. And one of the greatest challenges that I’ve faced in this is the women of color that are inferring continue to tell me that they have hesitations about going into litigation because they have been told for, you know, throughout their young careers of how they are too polite, they’re not aggressive enough, or, you know, their personality is not a good fit for litigation. And this is the rhetoric that I dealt with over a decade ago when I was in law school, and doing internships and was just wondering if you have any advice of how I could empower these women to learn if litigations are right fit for them, if they enjoy it, not because other people have told them they don’t have the personality for it.

[00:26:41] Maria Bee: Well, that’s disappointing that that’s still going on.

That’s a tough question. I think that in our office anyway, I haven’t heard that from our interns. And I hope that we have a very open litigation team that they wouldn’t feel like that’s a requirement. I mean, I think it goes back to the culture of a place. And if it’s open and doesn’t, is not overly aggressive, that folks may feel more comfortable, women may feel more comfortable joining the litigation team.

I’m afraid I don’t have any good advice on that. I’d be curious if anyone else on the call, especially the women litigators, the women of color maybe, specifically, if they have any ideas for combating that. And maybe, maybe it’s going to the law schools. And having women litigators go to the law schools and saying, I can do this.

You can do this because I think just in my own personal life, role models have been essential. Like I said before, I don’t think I would be a lawyer if my mother was not a lawyer. I just, I just don’t think that would have happened. Some people are able to be, you know, first gen students and they can see what they want to do and go grab it.

But others, I think, of us need to see someone do it who looks like them. So, that’s one thought. And I’d be happy to partner with you on that if you are interested.

[00:28:12] Hima Raviprakash: Yeah, no, absolutely. That’d be wonderful. Would I be able to email you?

[00:28:16] Maria Bee: Sure. Yeah. I’m on the City Attorney website.

[00:28:19] Hima Raviprakash: Perfect. Yeah. No, thank you.

It’s something that I feel very passionate about because it’s the rhetoric I dealt with when I was in law school, and I’ve been in litigation for over a decade. And so, know that that noise can be silenced. But it’s, I’m trying to find out how can I help younger people silence that noise faster than I was able to.

[00:28:46] Maria Bee: And Celia just put in the chat that if they come to our office, they can do a rotation and litigation, which is true. And several of the people on the call are from my office and they have commonality that they’re all women litigators. So, our office actually is a really good place to see women in litigation and how it’s possible and you don’t have to be a certain way you can be yourself and succeed.

[00:29:14] Hima Raviprakash: Thank you. I really appreciate that.

[00:29:17] Louis Goodman: Thank you, Hima.

[00:29:18] Courtney O’Brien: Would it be okay if I just chimed in real fast?

[00:29:21] Louis Goodman: Courtney O’Brien.

[00:29:24] Courtney O’Brien: I’m obviously not a woman of color, but I am a woman litigator, and I have always, you know, I think sometimes we’re our own worst critics and I have always felt that I am too nice. But I do not feel that it has ever held me back from being a good litigator. I think I’m a good litigator, and I think that I am well respected, and there’s something to being said to being able to get a lot done by people liking you and respecting you.

[00:29:53] Maria Bee: That’s right.

[00:29:53] Courtney O’Brien: I think that has been very helpful. So, what I think I’m trying to say is I think sometimes we can take some of these negative criticisms, which, you know, that’s total BS by the way, and I’m really upset to hear that people are saying that to your students, but turn it around and make it work for us.

[00:30:12] Louis Goodman: Thanks Court. Marta Cardenas Delgadillo.

[00:30:17] Marta Cardenas Delgadillo: Okay. Hi, Maria.

[00:30:18] Maria Bee: Hi, Marta.

[00:30:19] Marta Cardenas Delgadillo: Everybody had such great questions, but just thinking at your career and where you are, is there anything you would have done differently or any advice you have for your, as you were starting your law career?

[00:30:30] Maria Bee: You know, I don’t think I would do anything differently.

I have to admit, at the time, there wasn’t a grand plan. You know, I was with the firm, and I didn’t really like it, so I wanted to try something else. You know, what was the second part of your question, Martha?

[00:30:45] Marta Cardenas Delgadillo: Or any advice, and I’m thinking in particular, like you mentioned, I think a lot of us start off or, you know, when we go out of law school, we don’t really know where we’ll end up or like where we want to go.

[00:30:57] Maria Bee: Yeah, I think having an open mind about opportunities when I was at the City Attorney’s Office and there was this opportunity to lead the Victim Services Division, I agonized over it because I wasn’t sure I wanted to do it. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to take on the commute. You know, there were so many things that would make my life a little more challenging.

But it was an opportunity to grow in a way that I wasn’t with just regular litigation, right? So, working directly with victims, overseeing programs that support victims. So, I would say having an open mind, even if it might be a little scary.

[00:31:39] Louis Goodman: Well, Maria, I’ve got a couple of other questions for you. Is there someone who you’d like to meet who’s either living or out of the historical past who you would like to meet?

[00:31:53] Maria Bee: I would like to meet Brian Stevenson. He’s a lawyer who was, I think, a Public Defender and took on all sorts of challenging cases involving children. Folks that were wrongly incarcerated, he went to the South and did all kinds of incredible work and wrote a book called Just Mercy that kind of chronicled all of the things he did.

And I’ve seen him speak and he is so positive and not beat down by all of the kind of tragic circumstances that he’s seen. And I’m just wondering how he’s done that. He’s dealt with really almost life-threatening situations in his career. But he is, he just seems so humble, down to earth and positive. So, I would love to meet him, talk about what he’s done and how he’s kind of kept that positive attitude over the years.

[00:32:51] Louis Goodman: Thank you.

[00:32:52] Maria Bee: I recommend the book, Just Mercy.

[00:32:54] Louis Goodman: Maria, is there anything that you want to talk about, anything you want to mention, anything at all that we haven’t discussed that you’d like to bring up?

[00:33:03] Maria Bee: I don’t think so. This has been very thorough.

[00:33:07] Louis Goodman: Maria Bee, thank you so much for joining us today at the Alameda County Bar Association and Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you to all of the other participants who have made this program better and more interesting. Thank you for your participation.

[00:33:27] Maria Bee: Great. Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.

[00:33:30] Louis Goodman: That’s it for today’s edition of Love Thy Lawyer in collaboration with the Alameda County Bar Association.

Please visit the lovethylawyer.com website where you can find links to all of our episodes. Also, please visit the Alameda County Bar Association website at acbanet.org where you can find more information about our support of the legal profession, promoting excellence in the legal profession and facilitating equal access to justice. Thanks to Joel Katz for music, Brian Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media, and Tracy Harvey. I’m Louis Goodman.

Great, okay. Now you can say whatever you want. It’s off the record.